To most of us, Paul Verhoeven’s name became known when he moved from Holland to Hollywood and directed films such as Robocop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct, Starship Troopers and Hollow Man. Verhoeven directed his first film, Eeen Hagedis Teveel, in 1960, and also directed Floris, one of the most popular TV series in Holland.
The Dutch film industry is perhaps best known historically for its documentaries – it is a small market that mainly relies upon state funded ventures. In 2004, there were 24 domestic feature films released in the Netherlands and Dutch films received 9.2% of the home market share, with films from the US dominating at around 78%. Verhoeven’s Dutch films Business Is Business (Wat zien ik?, 1971), Turkish Delight (Turks Fruit, 1973), Katie Tippel (Keetje Tippel, 1975), Soldier of Orange (Soldaat van Oranje, 1977) and Spetters (1980) were all Dutch box-office hits and remain in the top-twenty most successful Dutch films ever. International attention for Turkish Delight and Soldier of Orange led to Verhoeven’s move to Hollywood.
His latest film, Black Book, debuts in the UK this week, and is the first film Verhoeven has made in his native Holland since The Fourth Man (De Vierde Man) in 1983. An epic, moving, thriller set in wartime NAZI occupied Netherlands in 1944, Black Book tells the story of a young Jewish woman’s fight for survival.
Verhoeven and Gerard Soeteman took twenty years to write the dramatic script, which was shot on location in The Hague, Giethoorn, The Biesbosch, the Babelberg Studio in Berlin and in Israel. Starring Carice van Houten, Sebastian Koch, Thom Hoffman, Halina Reijn, Christian Berkel and Waldemar Kobus, the film mostly takes place in Dutch, with some German, English and Hebrew. While different in scope and ambition to Verhoeven’s earlier work, it draws upon some persistent themes – his films often deal with violence, sexuality, or both.
Black Book was winner of the Young Cinema Award Best International Film at the Venice International Film Festival 2006 and winner of the Best Film, Best Director, Best Actress and Platinum Award at the Netherlands Film Festival 2006. Here, Paul Verhoeven talks about making his film in Holland.
Were you happy to make a film in the Netherlands after twenty years?
Most of all, I was glad to have the opportunity to make a film from a script that Gerard Soeteman and I have worked on for twenty years. For a long time we couldn’t get the story to work. The basic idea stayed the same: a group of Jews are betrayed and killed in the Biesbosch and the main character hunts down the traitor. Originally, it had a male lead. And that gave us a problem: we didn’t know how to get him to credibly infiltrate the German command. Three years ago Gerard solved the puzzle: the lead should be a woman. Then all the scenes we envisaged suddenly fell into place.
How would you describe Black Book?
It’s a thriller inspired by true events. All the story lines in Black Book have their basis in true events. Most characters are based on real people.
Did the ‘black book’ ever exist?
You mean the so-called ‘little black book’? Absolutely. Plenty has been written about it. Gerard first came across it in the book Moordenaarswerk by Hans van Straten that was published in the 60s. Gerard immediately thought it was a good start for a script. The ‘little black book’ was the diary of a Mr De Boer, a lawyer in The Hague who was shot in the Goudenregenstraat just after the war. The killers were never found. During the war, De Boer negotiated between the German army command in The Hague and the resistance to try and prevent unnecessary bloodshed. The resistance would assassinate people and the Germans would exact revenge by shooting hostages in the street. When I was six years old, I was made to walk past those bodies. De Boer’s black book, which probably contained names of traitors and collaborators – all the way to the top – was never found.
If Soldier of Orange was a heroic story, how would you characterise Black Book?
As a correction to the heroic Soldier of Orange. Black Book is a more realistic depiction of history. That is the main reason why I wanted to make this film. I wanted to show in an absorbing way what reality was like then. Not black and white, but in shades of grey. The film follows on from the book Grijs Verleden by Chris van der Heyden from 2001, in which the writer reassesses the past. It used to be conventional wisdom that the Dutch and the resistance were heroes and the Germans and their Dutch sympathisers were villains. Van der Heyden takes a fresh look at the Netherlands during the war. A post-modern look with plenty of alternative interpretations. People were neither heroes of villains. They could be heroic while behaving like villains, and vice versa. Jan Campert’s story is a good illustration of that (Campert, resistance fighter and author of one of the most famous anti-German poems of the war, was recently claimed to have behaved dishonourably in concentration camp Neuengamme, and possibly killed by fellow inmates). He had been placed on a pedestal, but now his legacy is in question.
You emphasise that Black Book is also entertainment.
Of course, films are a wonderful cross between art and business. The ultimate goal is to combine those opposites in some brilliant way. That’s what makes for a film of lasting value and commercial success. That’s what I always strive for: an entertaining film that appeals to a broad audience, from professor to shop assistant, that remains worthwhile for decades. Apart from David Lean few people have achieved that.
Which of your films have this lasting value?
The films that have proved themselves these last twenty years are Turkish Delight and Soldier of Orange. The Fourth Man and Spetters I also like, but I don’t think Wat ZIen Ik? or Keetje Tippel will survive.
Why did you choose to make the heroic Soldier of Orange rather than a more realistic film like Black Book?
At the time, as I said, we didn’t have a script for Black Book. Eric Hazelhoff Roelfsema’s book had been very popular, and we got support from the royal family and the army, which helped to get the funding sorted out. Gerard read the book when we were working on Turkish Delight. The plan was to make it a TV series. Meanwhile we made Turkish Delight and Keetje Tippel. When we discussed new projects with Rob Houwer our first idea was to make a remake of De donkere kamer van Damocles. That would have been closer to Black Book than to Soldier of Orange. But Rob didn’t like the idea, because it was a remake. He proposed to try and realise Soldier of Orange as a feature film. When we researched that, we came across some remarkable events in The Hague in the last years of the war. About SD officer Munt and Frank of the Sonderkommando. Those stories didn’t fit with Soldier of Orange, but they’ve now been incorporated into Black Book.
How many documents did you and Soeteman read for the film?
Between 700 and 800 over a period of some forty years. In 1967 I was doing research for the TV documentary Portret van Anton Adriaan Mussert. Jacob Zwaan, then archivist at the RIOD (National War Documentation Centre), alerted me to the report Kamptoestanden by Dutch Nazi party member reverend Van der Vaart Smit, who was imprisoned after the war, which gives prisoners’ accounts of abuse and mistreatment in those camps. We have weaved some of those stories into Black Book. This is what makes the film so provocative, because nobody has yet shown how we treated our prisoners in 1945. But that wasn’t our only source of inspiration for the film. Picture archives were another. For instance pictures of the camp guards. Members of the provisional army and resistance people. After all, after the war everybody claimed to have been in the resistance. There were lots of dubious people there.
If you look at those pictures, you wouldn’t have wanted to be at their mercy. They way they strut when they had arrested a Dutch Nazi, makes you fear the worst.
How did you and Soeteman divide the work on the script?
Gerard sets out the structure and the general drift. He monitors story development and character development. He starts. He writes the first draft and the next drafts. I then add things and change things, scenes as well as characters. If my memory serves, I came up with Ronnie, as I did with Maja in Spetters. The scenes at the end in the prison camp are mostly mine. I have made a significant contribution to the script. For most films I made with Gerard, the script was mostly his so I didn’t get a credit. But this time my contribution was such that Gerard and I both felt that we should share the writing credits.
As with your previous films, Black Book is very pacy. More so than the scripts Gerard has written for other people. Was that your influence?
I think it comes out of our collaboration. When Gerard works alone or with others, the dynamics are different. Gerard and I have always clicked. We are from a similar background, even though our characters are very different. Gerard is only two years older than me. We were both children in the war, we went to grammar school, studied at Leiden University, and both did our national service. And then we met on the TV series Floris. With such similar backgrounds it’s easier to work together than when you are from different worlds. Our different characters in practice really gel. The collaboration with Gerard is the most creative of my life. In America I worked with Eric Neumeier on RoboCop and Starship Troopers, but working with Gerard is just the best because we have such a good balance as a team. Of course language is also an issue. In Dutch I am confident when I write dialogue, I know when it sounds right. When I write something in English, I first ask Stacy Lumbrezer, my co-producer to check it because usually the English is pretty poor, awkward or stiff. I don’t feel secure writing in English. Perhaps that’s why I’ve made so many genre films in America. I have writing credits on none of my films there. I can respond to American culture, I can add to it, I can criticize and be ironic. And I have. But I cannot really think in that culture. So I need a writer to give me a solid blueprint. And then I am enough of an architect to play with that and add minor scenes. On Dutch productions I understand the characters better. Especially after the political developments of recent years I have a hard time understanding Americans. Not so much the people in Hollywood, but mostly those of the Midwest. Eventually I will return to Holland. I haven’t become such a fan of America that I want to spend the rest of my days there.
Apart from the script, were there other reasons why you were glad to be working in Holland again?
The best thing was to be able to work with the biggest acting talent, Carice van Houten, Thom Hoffman, Halina Reijn, Peter Blok and let’s not forget the Germans, Sebastian Koch, Christian Berkel, Waldemar Kobus. These are actors of the highest quality. In America I had almost no access to that category. I would have loved to make a film with Nicole Kidman or Tom Cruise, but it’s almost impossible. The only way is a special project that’s tailored to the star. So in my American productions I have never been able to retain a fixed group of actors. The way in which in Holland I worked several times with Rutger Hauer, Monique van der Ven, Renée Soutendijk, and now again with Dolf de Vries and Derek de Lint.
Your earlier films in Holland were produced by either Rob Houwer or Joop van den Ende. Why this time San Fu Maltha?
Initially Rob was to produce the film. But we had disagreements about contracts, not for the first time either, and Rob pulled out. Rob and I have had plenty of disagreements over the years, but it has never affected our friendship. We have dinner together now as the best of friends. I then sent the script to Joop, but he never responded. I came to San Fu through Jos van der Linden, an old friend that Gerard and I have always stayed in touch with. Jos was executive producer on for instance Spetters. San Fu felt right immediately. Because of his collaboration with Jos, because he’s increasingly putting himself on the map as a producer, and because he’s got this international air about him. He’s got lots of contacts abroad, and that was important for this film. After all, Black Book is a big international production. And I my intuition didn’t lie, because San Fu has made some excellent financial deals. By finding co-producers in Germany, Britain and Belgium, but also negotiating distribution deals in many countries.
Any disadvantages about working in Holland again?
Well, I wouldn’t call it a disadvantage, but in a Dutch context Black Book is an enormously big and complex production. There is not much experience in Holland with that kind of scale of production, and that can be difficult.
You didn’t consider hiring experienced Americans?
No, I wanted Dutch people to gain experience so the film would also have social value. When Joris Ivens made a film in China, he would get a local crew, “so they take something away from it too. I’m only here for six months, but they’ll learn a thing or two while I’m here.” I thought that was a nice gesture, and I’ve always remembered it. Now I have the chance, I wanted to do something similar. In 1995 two special stamps were issued to celebrate the Year of the Film: one featured a scene from Turks Fruit (Turkish Delight) the other a portrait of Joris Ivens. And now I’m following in his footsteps. Gerard and I have had a number of heated arguments about Ivens. Gerard hates him for his communist sympathies and his falsified images but I’m a big fan. Ivens has made some wonderful films.
Were there many old friends in the crew?
A few, like Hans Kemna and Jos van der Linden, but most of the people I used to work with are retired or dead. On Black Book I was in the same situation as with RoboCop. A fresh start with a largely new team. We had to find a new camera man anyway. Jan de Bont, who shot Turks Fruit (Turkish Delight), The Fourth Man, Flesh & Blood and Basic Instinct, is now a director. Jost Vacano, who did Spetters, Soldier of Orange, RoboCop and Total Recall had retired. As Black Book is a co-production with Germany and Britain, it could be a German or a Brit. I spoke to Karl Walter Lindenlaub, who did Independence Day and The Haunting, in Los Angeles. We clicked. He wanted to get away from the American film industry for a while and do something smaller. Britain has made a massive contribution to the film in Anne Dudley. She’s composed the score for American History X, The Full Monty and The Crying Game.